Hear hear, Mike!
You're right. I've only used a recruiter one time in my life and he was
really good. It was when I first came here to the UK many years ago,
and he even offered me to stay with him and his family for a couple of
days while I was looking for somewhere to stay (If you're out there,
thanks, Peter - still greatly appreciated!). In fact, because he was a
good person, someone who really knew his niche and provided real value,
I even phoned him when I quit the job to go back to self employment, to
make sure he got his fee. I would probably have stayed for another
month or two if he didn't. This is something I obviously would never do
if I didn't feel the recruiter added value to the process.
There is a tiny percentage of good recruiters, but they are
overshadowed by the masses of useless twats pretending to be like them.
Actually, this problem is not unique to recruitment. It probably exists
in most occupations, but I can think of a few I have experience with,
in addition to recruiters:
- real estate agents
- mortgage brokers
- software developers
My theory is that the few good ones are the "geeks", the "hackers", the
people that really love their work, that are genuinely interested in
the work, money being only secondary. These people are always a joy to
work with.
The rest are only in it for the money. If you end up with an office
full of those that are only in it for the money, you're out of luck!
Then you end up with a corporate environment full of rules needed for
guiding the non-geeks, which practically repels the geeks, so your
chances of getting them by accident is reduced from tiny to none...

Mike Burgoine wrote:

type="cite">

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">As an IT recruitment
veteran (I think I probably
qualify for that now after 14 years) it
has been interesting to watch this blog unfold. I do feel I have to
bring some
perspective for the more considered and respected individuals of the
recruitment profession.

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"> 

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">Whilst many of the
points mentioned below highlight the (indefensible)
negative practices of the recruitment world, many of them due in part
to the
short-term approach, fee-chasing mind set of the consultants and often
the
questionable business model of the recruitment industry. It is true, a
too
higher percentage of my industry do lose sight of the fact they are
dealing
with human beings, and I do concur with many of the points highlighted
by Phil.

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"> 

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">The main point I wanted
to make is that a good recruiter
has every right to liaise and share ideas in these circles. Having
recruited
for many early-stage technology companies down the years: Seen many
succeed,
many fail, what holds true is the calibre of the people you hire can
make the
difference if you succeed or not. And those of us who take an active
interest
in these groups who get to know those who can productise,
commercialise, and
deliver quality software are most definitely worth their place at the
table.

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"> 

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">I know for a fact a
good recruiter can add real value to
the business he/she/they represent, and through experience of seeing
many companies
evolve over time, we can even pre-empt possible issues or make a timely
introduction
to take the business on to another level. Yes there are some good ones
out there.

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"> 

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">I look forward to
meeting up with you at a meet up soon face="Wingdings">J face="Verdana">

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"> 

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">Mike Burgoine

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;">Director

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"> moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.abilityresourcing.co.uk/">www.abilityresourcing.co.uk

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"> 

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"> 

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"> 

Wise words from an industry old-timer, not to be ignored.

2009/3/19 Bill Brown <[address removed]>:

> Yes, I have been dealing with recruiters for 4 years now, at first

> I was very subservient and polite until now I hang up as soon as

> I detect those lying tones. I was HORRIFIED to meet one on meetup.

> But, they are on their way......

> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgggggghhh.

> 

> 

> 

> 2009/3/19 Paul McGrath <[address removed]>

>> 

>> Wholeheartedly agree.

>> Having been a contractor since 1996 - I've shared all of the experiences

>> described by Phil here. Spotting job duplicates on jobserve et al or

>> fictitious jobs aimed at CV fishing comes with the territory.

>> Good recruiters realise that contractors are not fungible commodities.

>> Good recruiters also realise that they have to actively manage/satisfy

>> both contractors and clients.

>> Unfortunately as Phil attests - good recruiters are difficult to find.

>> Its primarily why and many of my contractor colleagues no longer use job

>> advertisement sites.

>> 

>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:27 AM, phil jones <[address removed]> wrote:

>>> 

>>> I'd say that in current circumstances, we don't want to be hostile to

>>> anyone who knows about good jobs  

>>> 

>>> But I think there's a great opportunity for a recruiter who raises

>>> their game above the others. Way too many of them work on a "throw

>>> enough mud against the wall" principle. Too many recruiters I've seem

>>> post jobs to get you to register your CV and then you never hear

>>> anything about the job you applied for but start getting spammed with

>>> a lot of badly matching adverts that read like they've been scraped

>>> off someone else's site.

>>> 

>>> Or spammed with other "keep in contact" fluff. I swear that one agency

>>> spammed me last week with something about "how to write a great cover

>>> letter" that was tied in with a story-telling festival or something.

>>> Clever ... but in a trite way. Making me think that these people had

>>> no real information to give me.

>>> 

>>> Here's what I'd like from a better recruiter.

>>> 

>>> 1) Tracking of my CV application. When I send a CV to you for a job,

>>> I'd like to see what stage it's reached in the process. Did you read

>>> my CV yet? Did you reject is as not a good fit? Did you reject it

>>> because you didn't think it's good enough? Did you pass it on to the

>>> employer and get a rejection back? Or nothing?

>>> 

>>> I won't be offended or have my feeling hurt; give me real feedback

>>> about my application. Tell me why I failed. THEN you can start giving

>>> me advice on doing a better one, or applying for better fitting jobs.

>>> 

>>> 2) Tracking the Job. It's inexcusable to keep advertising a job that's

>>> already gone. Or that you've scraped off another site. I want an

>>> agency that only shows jobs that that it's been hired to recruit for

>>> and has good knowledge of. And I want the agency to tell me, as an

>>> applicant, what's going on with that position. How many other people

>>> applied? If I get rejected, how many other people are left in the

>>> running? (Am I in the top 3 or was I filtered out when 50 others were

>>> put forward?) And I want an email the moment you know that the job

>>> went to someone else, so I'm not still wondering about it and can be

>>> on to the next thing.

>>> 

>>> 3) Give me as much real information about the company as possible.

>>> Treat me with respect, not paranoia. If you help me find a job with a

>>> great company, I'm not going to go directly to them and screw you out

>>> of your middle-man fee. Don't hide all the real information as though

>>> I might.

>>> 

>>> 4) Loads of other ways you can add value. When you post the salary

>>> that's offered, show me statistics of other, similar positions you

>>> know about. Is this a good salary for this kind of job? Other sites

>>> track the average salary for different positions, why can't you?

>>> 

>>> 5) Better filtering. I'm not a .NET guy. There's nothing about .NET on

>>> my CV. Sure, as a C, C++, Java, LAMP-stack guy I *could* learn .NET

>>> pretty easily if I needed to. But I didn't mention it. So why are you

>>> sending me dozens of .NET jobs as "good matches"?

>>> 

>>> 6) Why not find out more about me? You got a CV. Perhaps you could

>>> have more online questionnaires. Take a leaf out of the social

>>> networks like Facebook who are always asking me to classify myself in

>>> different ways. Sure, I'm not going to tell you about "Things I do

>>> when the boss isn't looking" but there are some mutually beneficial

>>> questions you can ask, to help me know more about myself and you (and

>>> potential employers) to know more about me.

>>> 

>>> Recruiting has a bad rep. with a lot of people, because it's just not

>>> done all that well. Like I say, that's a great opportunity for someone

>>> to do it much better.

>>> 

>>> phil

style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana;"> 

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style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Verdana; color: blue;"
lang="EN-GB"> 

style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Verdana; color: blue;"
lang="EN-GB"> 

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Wise words from an industry old-timer, not to be ignored.

2009/3/19 Bill Brown <[address removed]>:

> Yes, I have been dealing with recruiters for 4 years now, at first

> I was very subservient and polite until now I hang up as soon as

> I detect those lying tones. I was HORRIFIED to meet one on meetup.

> But, they are on their way......

> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgggggghhh.

> 

> 

> 

> 2009/3/19 Paul McGrath <[address removed]>

>> 

>> Wholeheartedly agree.

>> Having been a contractor since 1996 - I've shared all of the experiences

>> described by Phil here. Spotting job duplicates on jobserve et al or

>> fictitious jobs aimed at CV fishing comes with the territory.

>> Good recruiters realise that contractors are not fungible commodities.

>> Good recruiters also realise that they have to actively manage/satisfy

>> both contractors and clients.

>> Unfortunately as Phil attests - good recruiters are difficult to find.

>> Its primarily why and many of my contractor colleagues no longer use job

>> advertisement sites.

>> 

>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:27 AM, phil jones <[address removed]> wrote:

>>> 

>>> I'd say that in current circumstances, we don't want to be hostile to

>>> anyone who knows about good jobs  

>>> 

>>> But I think there's a great opportunity for a recruiter who raises

>>> their game above the others. Way too many of them work on a "throw

>>> enough mud against the wall" principle. Too many recruiters I've seem

>>> post jobs to get you to register your CV and then you never hear

>>> anything about the job you applied for but start getting spammed with

>>> a lot of badly matching adverts that read like they've been scraped

>>> off someone else's site.

>>> 

>>> Or spammed with other "keep in contact" fluff. I swear that one agency

>>> spammed me last week with something about "how to write a great cover

>>> letter" that was tied in with a story-telling festival or something.

>>> Clever ... but in a trite way. Making me think that these people had

>>> no real information to give me.

>>> 

>>> Here's what I'd like from a better recruiter.

>>> 

>>> 1) Tracking of my CV application. When I send a CV to you for a job,

>>> I'd like to see what stage it's reached in the process. Did you read

>>> my CV yet? Did you reject is as not a good fit? Did you reject it

>>> because you didn't think it's good enough? Did you pass it on to the

>>> employer and get a rejection back? Or nothing?

>>> 

>>> I won't be offended or have my feeling hurt; give me real feedback

>>> about my application. Tell me why I failed. THEN you can start giving

>>> me advice on doing a better one, or applying for better fitting jobs.

>>> 

>>> 2) Tracking the Job. It's inexcusable to keep advertising a job that's

>>> already gone. Or that you've scraped off another site. I want an

>>> agency that only shows jobs that that it's been hired to recruit for

>>> and has good knowledge of. And I want the agency to tell me, as an

>>> applicant, what's going on with that position. How many other people

>>> applied? If I get rejected, how many other people are left in the

>>> running? (Am I in the top 3 or was I filtered out when 50 others were

>>> put forward?) And I want an email the moment you know that the job

>>> went to someone else, so I'm not still wondering about it and can be

>>> on to the next thing.

>>> 

>>> 3) Give me as much real information about the company as possible.

>>> Treat me with respect, not paranoia. If you help me find a job with a

>>> great company, I'm not going to go directly to them and screw you out

>>> of your middle-man fee. Don't hide all the real information as though

>>> I might.

>>> 

>>> 4) Loads of other ways you can add value. When you post the salary

>>> that's offered, show me statistics of other, similar positions you

>>> know about. Is this a good salary for this kind of job? Other sites

>>> track the average salary for different positions, why can't you?

>>> 

>>> 5) Better filtering. I'm not a .NET guy. There's nothing about .NET on

>>> my CV. Sure, as a C, C++, Java, LAMP-stack guy I *could* learn .NET

>>> pretty easily if I needed to. But I didn't mention it. So why are you

>>> sending me dozens of .NET jobs as "good matches"?

>>> 

>>> 6) Why not find out more about me? You got a CV. Perhaps you could

>>> have more online questionnaires. Take a leaf out of the social

>>> networks like Facebook who are always asking me to classify myself in

>>> different ways. Sure, I'm not going to tell you about "Things I do

>>> when the boss isn't looking" but there are some mutually beneficial

>>> questions you can ask, to help me know more about myself and you (and

>>> potential employers) to know more about me.

>>> 

>>> Recruiting has a bad rep. with a lot of people, because it's just not

>>> done all that well. Like I say, that's a great opportunity for someone

>>> to do it much better.

>>> 

>>> phil

Wise words from an industry old-timer, not to be ignored.

2009/3/19 Bill Brown <[address removed]>:

> Yes, I have been dealing with recruiters for 4 years now, at first

> I was very subservient and polite until now I hang up as soon as

> I detect those lying tones. I was HORRIFIED to meet one on meetup.

> But, they are on their way......

> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgggggghhh.

> 

> 

> 

> 2009/3/19 Paul McGrath <[address removed]>

>> 

>> Wholeheartedly agree.

>> Having been a contractor since 1996 - I've shared all of the experiences

>> described by Phil here. Spotting job duplicates on jobserve et al or

>> fictitious jobs aimed at CV fishing comes with the territory.

>> Good recruiters realise that contractors are not fungible commodities.

>> Good recruiters also realise that they have to actively manage/satisfy

>> both contractors and clients.

>> Unfortunately as Phil attests - good recruiters are difficult to find.

>> Its primarily why and many of my contractor colleagues no longer use job

>> advertisement sites.

>> 

>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:27 AM, phil jones <[address removed]> wrote:

>>> 

>>> I'd say that in current circumstances, we don't want to be hostile to

>>> anyone who knows about good jobs :-)

>>> 

>>> But I think there's a great opportunity for a recruiter who raises

>>> their game above the others. Way too many of them work on a "throw

>>> enough mud against the wall" principle. Too many recruiters I've seem

>>> post jobs to get you to register your CV and then you never hear

>>> anything about the job you applied for but start getting spammed with

>>> a lot of badly matching adverts that read like they've been scraped

>>> off someone else's site.

>>> 

>>> Or spammed with other "keep in contact" fluff. I swear that one agency

>>> spammed me last week with something about "how to write a great cover

>>> letter" that was tied in with a story-telling festival or something.

>>> Clever ... but in a trite way. Making me think that these people had

>>> no real information to give me.

>>> 

>>> Here's what I'd like from a better recruiter.

>>> 

>>> 1) Tracking of my CV application. When I send a CV to you for a job,

>>> I'd like to see what stage it's reached in the process. Did you read

>>> my CV yet? Did you reject is as not a good fit? Did you reject it

>>> because you didn't think it's good enough? Did you pass it on to the

>>> employer and get a rejection back? Or nothing?

>>> 

>>> I won't be offended or have my feeling hurt; give me real feedback

>>> about my application. Tell me why I failed. THEN you can start giving

>>> me advice on doing a better one, or applying for better fitting jobs.

>>> 

>>> 2) Tracking the Job. It's inexcusable to keep advertising a job that's

>>> already gone. Or that you've scraped off another site. I want an

>>> agency that only shows jobs that that it's been hired to recruit for

>>> and has good knowledge of. And I want the agency to tell me, as an

>>> applicant, what's going on with that position. How many other people

>>> applied? If I get rejected, how many other people are left in the

>>> running? (Am I in the top 3 or was I filtered out when 50 others were

>>> put forward?) And I want an email the moment you know that the job

>>> went to someone else, so I'm not still wondering about it and can be

>>> on to the next thing.

>>> 

>>> 3) Give me as much real information about the company as possible.

>>> Treat me with respect, not paranoia. If you help me find a job with a

>>> great company, I'm not going to go directly to them and screw you out

>>> of your middle-man fee. Don't hide all the real information as though

>>> I might.

>>> 

>>> 4) Loads of other ways you can add value. When you post the salary

>>> that's offered, show me statistics of other, similar positions you

>>> know about. Is this a good salary for this kind of job? Other sites

>>> track the average salary for different positions, why can't you?

>>> 

>>> 5) Better filtering. I'm not a .NET guy. There's nothing about .NET on

>>> my CV. Sure, as a C, C++, Java, LAMP-stack guy I *could* learn .NET

>>> pretty easily if I needed to. But I didn't mention it. So why are you

>>> sending me dozens of .NET jobs as "good matches"?

>>> 

>>> 6) Why not find out more about me? You got a CV. Perhaps you could

>>> have more online questionnaires. Take a leaf out of the social

>>> networks like Facebook who are always asking me to classify myself in

>>> different ways. Sure, I'm not going to tell you about "Things I do

>>> when the boss isn't looking" but there are some mutually beneficial

>>> questions you can ask, to help me know more about myself and you (and

>>> potential employers) to know more about me.

>>> 

>>> Recruiting has a bad rep. with a lot of people, because it's just not

>>> done all that well. Like I say, that's a great opportunity for someone

>>> to do it much better.

>>> 

>>> phil

Wise words from an industry old-timer, not to be ignored.

2009/3/19 Bill Brown <[address removed]>:

> Yes, I have been dealing with recruiters for 4 years now, at first

> I was very subservient and polite until now I hang up as soon as

> I detect those lying tones. I was HORRIFIED to meet one on meetup.

> But, they are on their way......

> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgggggghhh.

> 

> 

> 

> 2009/3/19 Paul McGrath <[address removed]>

>> 

>> Wholeheartedly agree.

>> Having been a contractor since 1996 - I've shared all of the experiences

>> described by Phil here. Spotting job duplicates on jobserve et al or

>> fictitious jobs aimed at CV fishing comes with the territory.

>> Good recruiters realise that contractors are not fungible commodities.

>> Good recruiters also realise that they have to actively manage/satisfy

>> both contractors and clients.

>> Unfortunately as Phil attests - good recruiters are difficult to find.

>> Its primarily why and many of my contractor colleagues no longer use job

>> advertisement sites.

>> 

>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:27 AM, phil jones <[address removed]> wrote:

>>> 

>>> I'd say that in current circumstances, we don't want to be hostile to

>>> anyone who knows about good jobs :-)

>>> 

>>> But I think there's a great opportunity for a recruiter who raises

>>> their game above the others. Way too many of them work on a "throw

>>> enough mud against the wall" principle. Too many recruiters I've seem

>>> post jobs to get you to register your CV and then you never hear

>>> anything about the job you applied for but start getting spammed with

>>> a lot of badly matching adverts that read like they've been scraped

>>> off someone else's site.

>>> 

>>> Or spammed with other "keep in contact" fluff. I swear that one agency

>>> spammed me last week with something about "how to write a great cover

>>> letter" that was tied in with a story-telling festival or something.

>>> Clever ... but in a trite way. Making me think that these people had

>>> no real information to give me.

>>> 

>>> Here's what I'd like from a better recruiter.

>>> 

>>> 1) Tracking of my CV application. When I send a CV to you for a job,

>>> I'd like to see what stage it's reached in the process. Did you read

>>> my CV yet? Did you reject is as not a good fit? Did you reject it

>>> because you didn't think it's good enough? Did you pass it on to the

>>> employer and get a rejection back? Or nothing?

>>> 

>>> I won't be offended or have my feeling hurt; give me real feedback

>>> about my application. Tell me why I failed. THEN you can start giving

>>> me advice on doing a better one, or applying for better fitting jobs.

>>> 

>>> 2) Tracking the Job. It's inexcusable to keep advertising a job that's

>>> already gone. Or that you've scraped off another site. I want an

>>> agency that only shows jobs that that it's been hired to recruit for

>>> and has good knowledge of. And I want the agency to tell me, as an

>>> applicant, what's going on with that position. How many other people

>>> applied? If I get rejected, how many other people are left in the

>>> running? (Am I in the top 3 or was I filtered out when 50 others were

>>> put forward?) And I want an email the moment you know that the job

>>> went to someone else, so I'm not still wondering about it and can be

>>> on to the next thing.

>>> 

>>> 3) Give me as much real information about the company as possible.

>>> Treat me with respect, not paranoia. If you help me find a job with a

>>> great company, I'm not going to go directly to them and screw you out

>>> of your middle-man fee. Don't hide all the real information as though

>>> I might.

>>> 

>>> 4) Loads of other ways you can add value. When you post the salary

>>> that's offered, show me statistics of other, similar positions you

>>> know about. Is this a good salary for this kind of job? Other sites

>>> track the average salary for different positions, why can't you?

>>> 

>>> 5) Better filtering. I'm not a .NET guy. There's nothing about .NET on

>>> my CV. Sure, as a C, C++, Java, LAMP-stack guy I *could* learn .NET

>>> pretty easily if I needed to. But I didn't mention it. So why are you

>>> sending me dozens of .NET jobs as "good matches"?

>>> 

>>> 6) Why not find out more about me? You got a CV. Perhaps you could

>>> have more online questionnaires. Take a leaf out of the social

>>> networks like Facebook who are always asking me to classify myself in

>>> different ways. Sure, I'm not going to tell you about "Things I do

>>> when the boss isn't looking" but there are some mutually beneficial

>>> questions you can ask, to help me know more about myself and you (and

>>> potential employers) to know more about me.

>>> 

>>> Recruiting has a bad rep. with a lot of people, because it's just not

>>> done all that well. Like I say, that's a great opportunity for someone

>>> to do it much better.

>>> 

>>> phil