Open Coffee Entrepreneur Group » AJAX

PHP w/templates, MySQL, clean Web 2.0/AJAX interface design

Ronny Ager-Wick — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:10:00 +0000

John,
I can see you've decided not to be burned more times then 
Maybe one of the problems you face is because you specify the technology
to use up front. Of course if you already have an existing system, this
may make sense. To get to use the real hackers, the best developers
basically, you should let them decide the technology (except if they
suggest .net of course, which is a sign they're not really hackers
anyway :-b ). Although lots of great systems has been build using PHP up
though the years, a lot of the best developers has become "fed up" with
it, especially as so many wannabe developers that are only in it for the
money (the type of people that normally only use proprietary
technologies) has flooded the marketplace, making it difficult for
entrepreneurs like yourself to spot the really good ones.
When I recruit sub contractors I use my own experience as a developer
and software architect for more than a decade to evaluate whether
they're any good. It's still not a fool proof method, but the chances
for a hacker to find another hacker will always be much higher than a
non-hacker finding one - it takes one to know one.
(OK, I admit that doesn't help you much - you don't have a hacker, but
you need one to get one...)
As mentioned in an earlier thread, you want a hacker because they a
really good one is generally 10x more productive than an average one.
You might have to pay more, but you certainly get more as well. But be
careful, you can't just use the price as a guide to how good they are.
I've had absolutely amazing developers charging average rates and I've
seen completely useless ones charge sky-high rates. YMMV, basically.
I can't recommend myself, because I stopped using PHP ages ago, and I am
mostly involved on a higher level, managing the process, designing
complex database structures and making sure everyone understand each
other. Also, most of the devs I normally work with are overseas, and you
wanted UK based ones. I have to say most of my clients also prefer UK
based people, but given the choice between an average developer here and
a real hacker overseas, the choice is easy.
Just my 2¢, hopefully you can extract some useful information out of it 
Ronny.

For the record:
hacker = *really* good software developer, who doesn't have to have
prior knowledge about something in order to achieve something useful in
a minimum amount of time - they'll just do it, learn as they go along
cracker = bad hacker (the ones that hack CIA, etc)

a cracker is usually also a hacker but a hacker is not necessarily (or
rarely) a cracker.

John Hamlen wrote:
> Dear Fellow Entrepreneurs,
>
> Does anyone have a developer/company they are dying to recommend with expertise described in the subject line?
>
> I have a project that won't be a simple, hack-some-existing-code type affair. It will include elements such as interfacing to an SMS gateway.
>
> I've got my fingers burned a couple of times going through Elance, so I'd much rather rely on a personal recommendation than Elance feedback and uploaded examples of their work.
>
> Any recommendations much appreciated! UK based guys/girls preferred.
>
> Many thanks in advance,
> John
>
>
>
> --
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recruiter spam….

Ronny Ager-Wick — Fri, 20 Mar 2009 05:35:00 +0000

oooh, maybe I should reconsider, and convert back to a world where inferior tools cost money, lock you in and generates incompatible code - nah, don't think so! (yes, I said "back", so I do know both worlds, and I know which is the best for "my" world, the entrepreneurial one)

Actually, I'm not sure if such a misinformed post is actually worth a reply, as you're twisting this into a better/worse fight, which was not my intention, not to mention being completely pointless, but for the people out there that might be wondering, or wanting some more information (probably not many, as this is an entrepreneur group, and entrepreneurs tend to know about open source): - there is a big difference between the two "camps" of software developers - the technologists, hackers and developr that really love their job, which usually developed form having it as a hobby, on one side and the 9-to-5-working, education-centric yeah-I-have-a-certificate! type employees who are in it for the salary. You can guess yourself which technology stack each of these camps will generally choose (yes I know there are exceptions, thus the use of the word "generally") and which group produces innovation. The original post was about recruiting - if you want to catch the best fish, you need to use the right bait. - "free" is not primarily about cost, it's about liberty, freedom and safeguarding yourself from becoming a hostage (*). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratis_versus_Libre and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOSS - Why do Microsoft fanboys run around like headless chicken shouting "ANTI-CAPITALIST!" when the word open-source is mentioned? Good capitalists know how to prevent themselves from getting caught by greedy corporates with a turnover comparable to a medium sized country's GDP, which they have no way f controlling. However average middle management employees in meaningless jobs, afraid of loosing them, tend to gravitate towards technologies offered by big companies because it sounds safe and nobody will fire them for making a safe choice. In fact if you want to make a political compariso; a proprietary software model, when it grows too dominant, is like a dictatorship, Free/Libre Open Source Software is Democracy. (*) A lawyer friend of mine recently had a case where a technology company had based their product on a proprietary technology they did not own. The company owning the technology sold it to a big company, who in turn retired the product. So the company who's entire existence depended on it just got both its legs cut off and had to fight in court to get the right to continue to use it. Lucky for them my friend is a brilliant lawyer so they managed to get a deal, but for a lot of other companies this is not the case. Needless to say, had they based their product on a technology released under a FLOSS license, and the maintainer of it got tired, retired, got a real job or went back to college, they would still have the same rights to use and continue to develop it, even take over if this happened to be a very important piece of their puzzle.

It's not about what technology is "best", it's about what's best for you and your company (in a idealistic OR capitalist way, whichever you prefer) - in the long term. Ronny.
ralph masilamani wrote:

Ronny
Ridiculous rant.
1. We’re in 2009 – perhaps your non-Microsoft tools can’t tell the time.

2. ‘Good Technologists’ can always extract the relative strength and
weaknesses of any technical choice – seems like you can’t which leads
me to believe your skills are lacking

3. Open source shield? Have you been watching star wars for the
32,768th time? You really need a new metaphor!

4. ‘REAL’ experts CAN tell you what .NET is good for and what it’s not.
Be vary wary of anyone envagelizing one or the other as they are more
than likely to be imbalanced.

IMHO,

.NET is still the best choice for rapid construction of rich
applications – Eclipse RCP, SWT, GWT etc are all playing catchup.
.NET is the best choice for an internet application that needs access
to the customers computer – OH!!! – Most of them are Windows machines
.NET is not free – you have to pay for Visual Studio – so that’s a cost
to consider

And by the way, I am not a .NET or MSFT developer.
I build complex business applications using various technology stacks
running on diverse global platforms.
You need to evaluate .NET on it’s applicability for your business needs
- not the rambling rants of some open source, anti-capitalist.

And on a lighter note, remember
Open Source is free, but so is dog poo!

From:
Ronny Ager-Wick <[address removed]>
To:
[address removed]
Sent: Thursday, 19
March, 2009 20:01:02
Subject: Re:
[entrepreneur-1056] recruiter spam….

not to mention...ASP.NET?!?!... I mean, what kind of web entrepreneurs are using Microsoft technologies??? What happened? Are we back in the 80s now??? You may or may not have a good idea but with the wrong technology choice you've closed the door for the best hackers (or seriously good software developers) in the world, who wouldn't touch you with a barge pole. Then you're left with the code monkeys, and the "yeah, let's study software development because the salary is high" wannabes... Which is fine with me, I don't want them! I work with real hackers only oops, did I say that out loud? anyway, never mind attacking me with MS evangelism - I have an open source shield and I know how to use it My advice to all of you: If you're starting up a web business of any kind an you're not yourself a hacker, consult some (more than 1) REAL experts on web technology for advice on technology platform *BEFORE* you start hiring. Understand licensing and what it means for you, your product, your company and the value of your company when you intend to float it or sell it. Starting from scratch after betting on the wrong technology, or developers, is very, very expensive!
Ronny.
david j w bailey wrote:

Makes me wonder what sort of people are in
this group.
Surely AJAX code monkeys don’t hang out in entrepreneur groups waiting
for jobs? If you are asking us to search our networks for you, perhaps
you should offer a commission! After all WE are here to create
businesses.

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

From:
Marc Bridgen
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:30:16 -0400
To: <[address removed]>
Subject: RE: [entrepreneur-1056] recruiter spam….

Afternoon
All,

With
all this activity I had to get in!

We
are HIRING for a senior developer to work on www.gigjunkie.net:

Applicants
should have excellent skills in: ASP.Net 3.5 and MVC, C#, AJAX, XML,
Web Services, SQL Server 2005, Visual Studio 2008, a continuous
integration environment and MSBuild, TDD, and preferably a queuing
technology such as MSMQ

·
have a solid background of highly transactional websites, public
websites, enterprise level applications, localisation, profiling and
analysing data to produce trends

·
understand the power of Web 2.0 and how it can be leveraged

·
have experience of WWF and WCF, Subversion, an ORM such as NHibernate,
cloud computing and an Agile environment

Full
job spec: http://uk.crunchboard.com/opening/detailjob.php?jid=6148

Please
share this with any suitable applicants

We
are NOT using recruitment agencies, so PLEASE do not contact me.

Cheers,

Marc
Bridgen

GigJunkie

4th
Floor

95
Southwark Street

London
SE1 0HX

Mob:
07974 670 946

Tel:
020 7593 3035

Fax:
020 7593 3029

Trading
Company is Smart Tickets Ltd.

Registered
Office: Avalon Accounting, Equity House, 4-6
School Road, Tilehurst, Reading, Berks RG31 5AL.

Company
Registration Number: 6023008

The
information in this email is confidential and may be legally
privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended
recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or
omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be
unlawful.

From: [address removed]
[mailto:[address removed]]
On Behalf Of Owais Amiri
Sent: 19 March 2009 17:20
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [entrepreneur-1056] recruiter spam….

Phil and Paul, Not surprised to read the list
of
grievances candidates have against Recruitment agencies. Even companies
have been victims of consultants hounding them, being rude to them or
being bombarded with aggressive phone calls.

But hey, people choose the way they prefer to
do
business!

Possibly I am new to recruitment, but I don’t
do
business the traditional way. We are small company and three altogether.

1) We recieve hundreds of irrelevant CVs for a
job posted on a job-board. For eg, I was looking for a Data Protection
Manager. Candidate must have an ISEB certificate in Data Protection. We
would recieve CVs from people who wouldn’t have a clue about data
protection or might’ve come across it the first time(if they take the
time to read the JD). So when we recieve hundreds of CV’s for one
position, it is not always possible to reply to each one of them.
However, we do have to go through each one of them because we are
paying to place an advert on job-boards.But believe me, when I come
across CVs that do match the job description but for some reason cannot
put them forward for the role, I do email them and wish them good luck
in their job hunt.

2) I love it when candidates take the trouble
of
giving me a call to follow up once they’ve emailed me their CV or call
to find out why they were un-succesful. Phil, I would love to answer
every question I know of if candidates ask me but I don’t think its
wise to go on and on about the details of rejection when they show no
sign of interest themselves. I don’t mind telling them how many were
put forward and why they were rejected. I guess, the feedback helps
them in being smarter and revise their CVs if necessary for future
applications.

3) We don’t have the budget to keep
advertising
the jobs when it has already expired. I know there are companies out
there who do it the dirty way. We don’t and I am sure there are many
out there who don;t!! Sales is not all about fooling people!

4) As far as Treating candidates with respect,
my colleagues have come across candidates who in turn when placed
became our clients. They have used us for their staff requirements
because of the respect and service they recieved.

5) Whenever I have located a CV on job-boards
which does match the job description and I beleive he is a good fit.
First thing I ask when I call them is, “is it a convenient time to
speak?”. I read out the job description to them briefly, talk to them
about the salary. If they show interest, I DO NOT forward their CV to
the client there and then, I infact email them the job description and
the company’s details. Talk to them about the company environment and
culture (if its formal/casual, busy/relaxed, tensed/spread out, etc)
and then wait for them to email me their updated CV. If there is a need
to highlight a few things on the CV so that they have a better chance
to qualify for the job, I work on it with them!

I have made friends with candidates!

I love my job and I know some careless, greedy
people out there have spoilt its rep. But hey, some good ones are still
alive. I am not here on this forum to sell any of my services, so
please do not freak out! I have an enterpreneural flair and would love
to develop my skills and knowledge unlike others here.

Apologies for writing the longest email of the
century!

Cheers!

Owais Amiri!

2009/3/19 phil jones <[address removed]>

I’d say that in current circumstances, we
don’t
want to be hostile to
anyone who knows about good jobs

But I think there’s a great opportunity for a recruiter who raises
their game above the others. Way too many of them work on a “throw
enough mud against the wall” principle. Too many recruiters I’ve seem
post jobs to get you to register your CV and then you never hear
anything about the job you applied for but start getting spammed with
a lot of badly matching adverts that read like they’ve been scraped
off someone else’s site.

Or spammed with other “keep in contact” fluff. I swear that one agency
spammed me last week with something about “how to write a great cover
letter” that was tied in with a story-telling festival or something.
Clever … but in a trite way. Making me think that these people had
no real information to give me.

Here’s what I’d like from a better recruiter.

1) Tracking of my CV application. When I send a CV to you for a job,
I’d like to see what stage it’s reached in the process. Did you read
my CV yet? Did you reject is as not a good fit? Did you reject it
because you didn’t think it’s good enough? Did you pass it on to the
employer and get a rejection back? Or nothing?

I won’t be offended or have my feeling hurt; give me real feedback
about my application. Tell me why I failed. THEN you can start giving
me advice on doing a better one, or applying for better fitting jobs.

2) Tracking the Job. It’s inexcusable to keep advertising a job that’s
already gone. Or that you’ve scraped off another site. I want an
agency that only shows jobs that that it’s been hired to recruit for
and has good knowledge of. And I want the agency to tell me, as an
applicant, what’s going on with that position. How many other people
applied? If I get rejected, how many other people are left in the
running? (Am I in the top 3 or was I filtered out when 50 others were
put forward?) And I want an email the moment you know that the job
went to someone else, so I’m not still wondering about it and can be
on to the next thing.

3) Give me as much real information about the company as possible.
Treat me with respect, not paranoia. If you help me find a job with a
great company, I’m not going to go directly to them and screw you out
of your middle-man fee. Don’t hide all the real information as though
I might.

4) Loads of other ways you can add value. When you post the salary
that’s offered, show me statistics of other, similar positions you
know about. Is this a good salary for this kind of job? Other sites
track the average salary for different positions, why can’t you?

5) Better filtering. I’m not a .NET guy. There’s nothing about .NET on
my CV. Sure, as a C, C++, Java, LAMP-stack guy I *could* learn .NET
pretty easily if I needed to. But I didn’t mention it. So why are you
sending me dozens of .NET jobs as “good matches”?

6) Why not find out more about me? You got a CV. Perhaps you could
have more online questionnaires. Take a leaf out of the social
networks like Facebook who are always asking me to classify myself in
different ways. Sure, I’m not going to tell you about “Things I do
when the boss isn’t looking” but there are some mutually beneficial
questions you can ask, to help me know more about myself and you (and
potential employers) to know more about me.

Recruiting has a bad rep. with a lot of people, because it’s just not
done all that well. Like I say, that’s a great opportunity for someone
to do it much better.

phil

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Anshu Bathla <[address removed]>
wrote:
> Hey,
>
> We’ve got an interesting conversation here. Bill, I agree with you
to an
> extent (may be you have had worse experiences, relatively).. also
Owais is
> correct upto a good extent.
>
> I can say this with my own experience being on both ends, I was a
candidate
> two years ago and was after recruitment agencies to get me placed
in a role
> of my choice..as I had come across many cases where agency guys
had really
> made efforts in getting candidates placed.. but now I see in my
company how
> senior guys scrutinise recruitment agencies first and then make a
decision
> whether to go with a head-hunter or not, which is justifiable to
me and
> hence my opinion.
>
> My opinion is instead of shoo-ing head hunters away, just for that
matter,
> companies must see their portfolio and check out the quality of
candidates
> they hold on to. After all, they are specialists in their role (at
least
> some of them really are) and can do head hunting in a much more
effective
> manner than a normal HR guy in any company.
>
> Rest is upto recruiters – if they have a sharp eye and can do
without
> recruiters, well and good… but still they have to spend money
somewhere
> (O_O) !
>
> Good Luck to all parties involved – candidates, recruiters, head
hunters.
>
> Cheers,
> Anshu
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 09:33, Owais Amiri <[address removed]>
wrote:
>>
>> Not every recruitment agency or recruitment consultant are
evil and
>> deserve the rude treatment. Keep in mind they are humans on
the recieving
>> end.
>>
>> There are hundreds and thousands of candidates and companies
out there who
>> cannot do without Recruitment agencies.
>>
>> Not a very polite way of dealing with spam(if it was one).
>>
>> Kind Regards
>>
>> Owais Amiri
>>
>> PS: I am an IT recruitment consultant and have been in the
industry for 3
>> months.
>>
>>
>> 2009/3/19 Bill Brown <[address removed]>
>>>
>>> Recruiters send spam like that to my email 20 times a day.
They
>>> autogenerate jobs and send them everywhere by the million
just
>>> to collect cvs. Then they try to get leads from you.
>>> Vermin – obviously you don’t deal with them yourself or you
>>> would understand.
>>>
>>> Next viagra on dreamstake……
>>>
>>> 2009/3/19 Bill Brown <[address removed]>
>>>>
>>>> You are a recruitment agency????
>>>> Oh noooooooooooooo – GO AWAY.
>>>>
>>>> 2009/3/19 Kay Vasey <[address removed]>
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings!
>>>>>
>>>>> We’re looking for a company who can code in Python
(using the Django
>>>>> framework) to pick up where our current developer
is leaving off in April.
>>>>> Does anyone have any recommendations?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you very much in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kay
>>>>>
>>>>> –
>>>>> Kay Vasey :: Director
>>>>> ——————————-
>>>>> Mesh – The Cultural Marketplace
>>>>> Connect :: Invest :: Experience
>>>>>
>>>>> Mobile: +65 9150 3521
>>>>> Skype: kayvasey
>>>>>
>>>>> [address removed]
>>>>> http://www.meshminds.com
>>>>> http://www.meshminds.blogspot.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Company No. 5898203
>>>>> VAT Reg. No. 891 1086 20
>>>>> Registered address: 57 Mildmay Road, London N1 4PU
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> –
>>>>> Please Note: If you hit “REPLY”, your message will
be sent to everyone
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>>>>> This message was sent by Kay Vasey ([address removed])
from London
>>>>> OpenCoffee Meetup.
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member profile
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>>>>> Meetup Support: [address removed]
>>>>> 632 Broadway, New York, NY 10012 USA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> –
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from London
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>> –
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>
>
>
>
> –
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recruiter spam….

Ronny Ager-Wick — Fri, 20 Mar 2009 05:35:00 +0000

type="cite"> style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
Ronny
Ridiculous rant.
1. We’re in 2009 – perhaps your non-Microsoft tools can’t tell the time.

2. ‘Good Technologists’ can always extract the relative strength and
weaknesses of any technical choice – seems like you can’t which leads
me to believe your skills are lacking

3. Open source shield? Have you been watching star wars for the
32,768th time? You really need a new metaphor!

4. ‘REAL’ experts CAN tell you what .NET is good for and what it’s not.
Be vary wary of anyone envagelizing one or the other as they are more
than likely to be imbalanced.

IMHO,

.NET is still the best choice for rapid construction of rich
applications – Eclipse RCP, SWT, GWT etc are all playing catchup.
.NET is the best choice for an internet application that needs access
to the customers computer – OH!!! – Most of them are Windows machines
.NET is not free – you have to pay for Visual Studio – so that’s a cost
to consider

And by the way, I am not a .NET or MSFT developer.
I build complex business applications using various technology stacks
running on diverse global platforms.
You need to evaluate .NET on it’s applicability for your business needs
- not the rambling rants of some open source, anti-capitalist.

And on a lighter note, remember
Open Source is free, but so is dog poo!
style="font-family: verdana,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"> face="Tahoma" size="2">

From:
Ronny Ager-Wick <[address removed]>
To:
[address removed]
Sent: Thursday, 19
March, 2009 20:01:02
Subject: Re:
[entrepreneur-1056] recruiter spam….

not to mention...ASP.NET?!?!... I mean, what kind of web entrepreneurs are using Microsoft technologies??? What happened? Are we back in the 80s now??? You may or may not have a good idea but with the wrong technology choice you've closed the door for the best hackers (or seriously good software developers) in the world, who wouldn't touch you with a barge pole. Then you're left with the code monkeys, and the "yeah, let's study software development because the salary is high" wannabes... Which is fine with me, I don't want them! I work with real hackers only oops, did I say that out loud? anyway, never mind attacking me with MS evangelism - I have an open source shield and I know how to use it My advice to all of you: If you're starting up a web business of any kind an you're not yourself a hacker, consult some (more than 1) REAL experts on web technology for advice on technology platform *BEFORE* you start hiring. Understand licensing and what it means for you, your product, your company and the value of your company when you intend to float it or sell it. Starting from scratch after betting on the wrong technology, or developers, is very, very expensive!
Ronny.
david j w bailey wrote:

Makes me wonder what sort of people are in
this group.
Surely AJAX code monkeys don’t hang out in entrepreneur groups waiting
for jobs? If you are asking us to search our networks for you, perhaps
you should offer a commission! After all WE are here to create
businesses.

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

From:
Marc Bridgen
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:30:16 -0400
To: <[address removed]>
Subject: RE: [entrepreneur-1056] recruiter spam….

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Afternoon
All,

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">With
all this activity I had to get in!

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">We
are HIRING for a senior developer to work on rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.gigjunkie.net">www.gigjunkie.net:

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Applicants
should have excellent skills in: ASP.Net 3.5 and MVC, C#, AJAX, XML,
Web Services, SQL Server 2005, Visual Studio 2008, a continuous
integration environment and MSBuild, TDD, and preferably a queuing
technology such as MSMQ

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">·
have a solid background of highly transactional websites, public
websites, enterprise level applications, localisation, profiling and
analysing data to produce trends

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">·
understand the power of Web 2.0 and how it can be leveraged

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">·
have experience of WWF and WCF, Subversion, an ORM such as NHibernate,
cloud computing and an Agile environment

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Full
job spec: href="http://uk.crunchboard.com/opening/detailjob.php?jid=6148">http://uk.crunchboard.com/opening/detailjob.php?jid=6148

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Please
share this with any suitable applicants

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">We
are NOT using recruitment agencies, so PLEASE do not contact me.

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cheers,

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Marc
Bridgen

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://www.gigjunkie.net/">GigJunkie

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">4th
Floor

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">95
Southwark Street

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">London
SE1 0HX

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Mob:
07974 670 946

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tel:
020 7593 3035

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Fax:
020 7593 3029

style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="font-size: 6pt; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" lang="EN-US">Trading
Company is Smart Tickets Ltd.

style="font-size: 6pt; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" lang="EN-US">Registered
Office: Avalon Accounting, Equity House, 4-6
School Road, Tilehurst, Reading, Berks RG31 5AL.

style="font-size: 6pt; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" lang="EN-US">Company
Registration Number: 6023008

style="font-size: 6pt; color: rgb(127, 127, 127);" lang="EN-US">

style="font-size: 8pt; color: rgb(0, 24, 54);">The
information in this email is confidential and may be legally
privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended
recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or
omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be
unlawful.

style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">

style="border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
From: style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> [address removed]
[mailto:[address removed]]
On Behalf Of Owais Amiri
Sent: 19 March 2009 17:20
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [entrepreneur-1056] recruiter spam….

Phil and Paul, Not surprised to read the list
of
grievances candidates have against Recruitment agencies. Even companies
have been victims of consultants hounding them, being rude to them or
being bombarded with aggressive phone calls.

But hey, people choose the way they prefer to
do
business!

Possibly I am new to recruitment, but I don’t
do
business the traditional way. We are small company and three altogether.

1) We recieve hundreds of irrelevant CVs for a
job posted on a job-board. For eg, I was looking for a Data Protection
Manager. Candidate must have an ISEB certificate in Data Protection. We
would recieve CVs from people who wouldn’t have a clue about data
protection or might’ve come across it the first time(if they take the
time to read the JD). So when we recieve hundreds of CV’s for one
position, it is not always possible to reply to each one of them.
However, we do have to go through each one of them because we are
paying to place an advert on job-boards.But believe me, when I come
across CVs that do match the job description but for some reason cannot
put them forward for the role, I do email them and wish them good luck
in their job hunt.

2) I love it when candidates take the trouble
of
giving me a call to follow up once they’ve emailed me their CV or call
to find out why they were un-succesful. Phil, I would love to answer
every question I know of if candidates ask me but I don’t think its
wise to go on and on about the details of rejection when they show no
sign of interest themselves. I don’t mind telling them how many were
put forward and why they were rejected. I guess, the feedback helps
them in being smarter and revise their CVs if necessary for future
applications.

3) We don’t have the budget to keep
advertising
the jobs when it has already expired. I know there are companies out
there who do it the dirty way. We don’t and I am sure there are many
out there who don;t!! Sales is not all about fooling people!

4) As far as Treating candidates with respect,
my colleagues have come across candidates who in turn when placed
became our clients. They have used us for their staff requirements
because of the respect and service they recieved.

5) Whenever I have located a CV on job-boards
which does match the job description and I beleive he is a good fit.
First thing I ask when I call them is, “is it a convenient time to
speak?”. I read out the job description to them briefly, talk to them
about the salary. If they show interest, I DO NOT forward their CV to
the client there and then, I infact email them the job description and
the company’s details. Talk to them about the company environment and
culture (if its formal/casual, busy/relaxed, tensed/spread out, etc)
and then wait for them to email me their updated CV. If there is a need
to highlight a few things on the CV so that they have a better chance
to qualify for the job, I work on it with them!

I have made friends with candidates!

I love my job and I know some careless, greedy
people out there have spoilt its rep. But hey, some good ones are still
alive. I am not here on this forum to sell any of my services, so
please do not freak out! I have an enterpreneural flair and would love
to develop my skills and knowledge unlike others here.

Apologies for writing the longest email of the
century!

Cheers!

Owais Amiri!

2009/3/19 phil jones <[address removed]>

I’d say that in current circumstances, we
don’t
want to be hostile to
anyone who knows about good jobs

But I think there’s a great opportunity for a recruiter who raises
their game above the others. Way too many of them work on a “throw
enough mud against the wall” principle. Too many recruiters I’ve seem
post jobs to get you to register your CV and then you never hear
anything about the job you applied for but start getting spammed with
a lot of badly matching adverts that read like they’ve been scraped
off someone else’s site.

Or spammed with other “keep in contact” fluff. I swear that one agency
spammed me last week with something about “how to write a great cover
letter” that was tied in with a story-telling festival or something.
Clever … but in a trite way. Making me think that these people had
no real information to give me.

Here’s what I’d like from a better recruiter.

1) Tracking of my CV application. When I send a CV to you for a job,
I’d like to see what stage it’s reached in the process. Did you read
my CV yet? Did you reject is as not a good fit? Did you reject it
because you didn’t think it’s good enough? Did you pass it on to the
employer and get a rejection back? Or nothing?

I won’t be offended or have my feeling hurt; give me real feedback
about my application. Tell me why I failed. THEN you can start giving
me advice on doing a better one, or applying for better fitting jobs.

2) Tracking the Job. It’s inexcusable to keep advertising a job that’s
already gone. Or that you’ve scraped off another site. I want an
agency that only shows jobs that that it’s been hired to recruit for
and has good knowledge of. And I want the agency to tell me, as an
applicant, what’s going on with that position. How many other people
applied? If I get rejected, how many other people are left in the
running? (Am I in the top 3 or was I filtered out when 50 others were
put forward?) And I want an email the moment you know that the job
went to someone else, so I’m not still wondering about it and can be
on to the next thing.

3) Give me as much real information about the company as possible.
Treat me with respect, not paranoia. If you help me find a job with a
great company, I’m not going to go directly to them and screw you out
of your middle-man fee. Don’t hide all the real information as though
I might.

4) Loads of other ways you can add value. When you post the salary
that’s offered, show me statistics of other, similar positions you
know about. Is this a good salary for this kind of job? Other sites
track the average salary for different positions, why can’t you?

5) Better filtering. I’m not a .NET guy. There’s nothing about .NET on
my CV. Sure, as a C, C++, Java, LAMP-stack guy I *could* learn .NET
pretty easily if I needed to. But I didn’t mention it. So why are you
sending me dozens of .NET jobs as “good matches”?

6) Why not find out more about me? You got a CV. Perhaps you could
have more online questionnaires. Take a leaf out of the social
networks like Facebook who are always asking me to classify myself in
different ways. Sure, I’m not going to tell you about “Things I do
when the boss isn’t looking” but there are some mutually beneficial
questions you can ask, to help me know more about myself and you (and
potential employers) to know more about me.

Recruiting has a bad rep. with a lot of people, because it’s just not
done all that well. Like I say, that’s a great opportunity for someone
to do it much better.

phil

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Anshu Bathla <[address removed]>
wrote:
> Hey,
>
> We’ve got an interesting conversation here. Bill, I agree with you
to an
> extent (may be you have had worse experiences, relatively).. also
Owais is
> correct upto a good extent.
>
> I can say this with my own experience being on both ends, I was a
candidate
> two years ago and was after recruitment agencies to get me placed
in a role
> of my choice..as I had come across many cases where agency guys
had really
> made efforts in getting candidates placed.. but now I see in my
company how
> senior guys scrutinise recruitment agencies first and then make a
decision
> whether to go with a head-hunter or not, which is justifiable to
me and
> hence my opinion.
>
> My opinion is instead of shoo-ing head hunters away, just for that
matter,
> companies must see their portfolio and check out the quality of
candidates
> they hold on to. After all, they are specialists in their role (at
least
> some of them really are) and can do head hunting in a much more
effective
> manner than a normal HR guy in any company.
>
> Rest is upto recruiters – if they have a sharp eye and can do
without
> recruiters, well and good… but still they have to spend money
somewhere
> (O_O) !
>
> Good Luck to all parties involved – candidates, recruiters, head
hunters.
>
> Cheers,
> Anshu
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 09:33, Owais Amiri <[address removed]>
wrote:
>>
>> Not every recruitment agency or recruitment consultant are
evil and
>> deserve the rude treatment. Keep in mind they are humans on
the recieving
>> end.
>>
>> There are hundreds and thousands of candidates and companies
out there who
>> cannot do without Recruitment agencies.
>>
>> Not a very polite way of dealing with spam(if it was one).
>>
>> Kind Regards
>>
>> Owais Amiri
>>
>> PS: I am an IT recruitment consultant and have been in the
industry for 3
>> months.
>>
>>
>> 2009/3/19 Bill Brown <[address removed]>
>>>
>>> Recruiters send spam like that to my email 20 times a day.
They
>>> autogenerate jobs and send them everywhere by the million
just
>>> to collect cvs. Then they try to get leads from you.
>>> Vermin – obviously you don’t deal with them yourself or you
>>> would understand.
>>>
>>> Next viagra on dreamstake……
>>>
>>> 2009/3/19 Bill Brown <[address removed]>
>>>>
>>>> You are a recruitment agency????
>>>> Oh noooooooooooooo – GO AWAY.
>>>>
>>>> 2009/3/19 Kay Vasey <[address removed]>
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings!
>>>>>
>>>>> We’re looking for a company who can code in Python
(using the Django
>>>>> framework) to pick up where our current developer
is leaving off in April.
>>>>> Does anyone have any recommendations?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you very much in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kay
>>>>>
>>>>> –
>>>>> Kay Vasey :: Director
>>>>> ——————————-
>>>>> Mesh – The Cultural Marketplace
>>>>> Connect :: Invest :: Experience
>>>>>
>>>>> Mobile: +65 9150 3521
>>>>> Skype: kayvasey
>>>>>
>>>>> [address removed]
>>>>> target="_blank" href="http://www.meshminds.com/">http://www.meshminds.com
>>>>> target="_blank" href="http://www.meshminds.blogspot.com/">http://www.meshminds.blogspot.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Company No. 5898203
>>>>> VAT Reg. No. 891 1086 20
>>>>> Registered address: 57 Mildmay Road, London N1 4PU
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> –
>>>>> Please Note: If you hit “REPLY”, your message will
be sent to everyone
>>>>> on this mailing list ([address removed])
>>>>> This message was sent by Kay Vasey ([address removed])
from London
>>>>> OpenCoffee Meetup.
>>>>> To learn more about Kay Vasey, visit his/her
member profile
>>>>> To unsubscribe or to update your mailing list
settings, click here
>>>>>
>>>>> Meetup Support: [address removed]
>>>>> 632 Broadway, New York, NY 10012 USA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> –
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sent to everyone
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>>>> This message was sent by Bill Brown ([address removed])
from London
>>>> OpenCoffee Meetup.
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profile
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> –
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> –
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>
>
>
>
> –
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London
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