well said!

I can give a partial view, by the way

Geoff Wright wrote:

And the divide between old business and new business furthers...

On 3/19/09, Kamal Patel <[address removed]> wrote:
  

On that note. I would love to see an impartial view between .net
development in web startups compared to php and other dev technologies.

Cheer

Kamal

On 19 Mar 2009, at 17:44, david j w bailey <[address removed]> wrote:

Makes me wonder what sort of people are in this group. Surely AJAX
code monkeys don't hang out in entrepreneur groups waiting for jobs?
If you are asking us to search our networks for you, perhaps you
should offer a commission! After all WE are here to create
businesses. 
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

From: Marc Bridgen
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:30:16 -0400
To: <[address removed]>
Subject: RE: [entrepreneur-1056] recruiter spam....
Afternoon All,

With all this activity I had to get in!

We are HIRING for a senior developer to work on www.gigjunkie.net:

Applicants should have excellent skills in:  ASP.Net 3.5 and MVC,
C#, AJAX, XML, Web Services, SQL Server 2005, Visual Studio 2008, a
continuous integration environment and MSBuild, TDD, and preferably
a queuing technology such as MSMQ

·         have a solid background of highly transactional websites,
public websites, enterprise level applications, localisation, profil
ing and analysing data to produce trends

·         understand the power of Web 2.0 and how it can be leveraged

·         have experience of WWF and WCF, Subversion, an ORM such as
 NHibernate, cloud computing and an Agile environment

Full job spec: http://uk.crunchboard.com/opening/detailjob.php?
jid=6148

Please share this with any suitable applicants

We are NOT using recruitment agencies, so PLEASE do not contact me.

Cheers,

Marc Bridgen

GigJunkie

4th Floor

95 Southwark Street

London SE1 0HX

Mob: 07974 670 946

Tel: 020 7593 3035

Fax: 020 7593 3029

Trading Company is Smart Tickets Ltd.

Registered Office: Avalon Accounting, Equity House, 4-6 School Road,
Tilehurst, Reading, Berks RG31 5AL.

Company Registration Number: 6023008

The information in this email is confidential and may be legally
privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this
email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended
recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken
or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be
unlawful.

From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]
] On Behalf Of Owais Amiri
Sent: 19 March 2009 17:20
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [entrepreneur-1056] recruiter spam....

Phil and Paul, Not surprised to read the list of grievances
candidates have against Recruitment agencies. Even companies have
been victims of consultants hounding them, being rude to them or
being bombarded with aggressive phone calls.

But hey, people choose the way they prefer to do business!

Possibly I am new to recruitment, but I don't do business the
traditional way. We are small company and three altogether.

1) We recieve hundreds of irrelevant CVs for a job posted on a job-
board. For eg, I was looking for a Data Protection Manager.
Candidate must have an ISEB certificate in Data Protection. We would
recieve CVs from people who wouldn't have a clue about data
protection or might've come across it the first time(if they take
the time to read the JD). So when we recieve hundreds of CV's for
one position, it is not always possible to reply to each one of
them. However, we do have to go through each one of them because we
are paying to place an advert on job-boards.But believe me, when I
come across CVs that do match the job description but for some
reason cannot put them forward for the role, I do email them and
wish them good luck in their job hunt.

2) I love it when candidates take the trouble of giving me a call to
follow up once they've emailed me their CV or call to find out why
they were un-succesful. Phil, I would love to answer every question
I know of if candidates ask me but I don't think its wise to go on
and on about the details of rejection when they show no sign of
interest themselves. I don't mind telling them how many were put
forward and why they were rejected. I guess, the feedback helps them
in being smarter and revise their CVs if necessary for future
applications.

3) We don't have the budget to keep advertising the jobs when it has
already expired. I know there are companies out there who do it the
dirty way. We don't and I am sure there are many out there who
don;t!! Sales is not all about fooling people!

4) As far as Treating candidates with respect, my colleagues have
come across candidates who in turn when placed became our clients.
They have used us for their staff requirements because of the
respect and service they recieved.

5) Whenever I have located a CV on job-boards which does match the
job description and I beleive he is a good fit. First thing I ask
when I call them is, "is it a convenient time to speak?". I read out
the job description to them briefly, talk to them about the salary.
If they show interest, I DO NOT forward their CV to the client there
and then, I infact email them the job description and the company's
details. Talk to them about the company environment and culture (if
its formal/casual, busy/relaxed, tensed/spread out, etc) and then
wait for them to email me their updated CV. If there is a need to
highlight a few things on the CV so that they have a better chance
to qualify for the job, I work on it with them!

I have made friends with candidates!

I love my job and I know some careless, greedy people out there have
spoilt its rep. But hey, some good ones are still alive. I am not
here on this forum to sell any of my services, so please do not
freak out! I have an enterpreneural flair and would love to develop
my skills and knowledge unlike others here.

Apologies for writing the longest email of the century!

Cheers!

Owais Amiri!

2009/3/19 phil jones <[address removed]>

I'd say that in current circumstances, we don't want to be hostile to
anyone who knows about good jobs  

But I think there's a great opportunity for a recruiter who raises
their game above the others. Way too many of them work on a "throw
enough mud against the wall" principle. Too many recruiters I've seem
post jobs to get you to register your CV and then you never hear
anything about the job you applied for but start getting spammed with
a lot of badly matching adverts that read like they've been scraped
off someone else's site.

Or spammed with other "keep in contact" fluff. I swear that one agency
spammed me last week with something about "how to write a great cover
letter" that was tied in with a story-telling festival or something.
Clever ... but in a trite way. Making me think that these people had
no real information to give me.

Here's what I'd like from a better recruiter.

1) Tracking of my CV application. When I send a CV to you for a job,
I'd like to see what stage it's reached in the process. Did you read
my CV yet? Did you reject is as not a good fit? Did you reject it
because you didn't think it's good enough? Did you pass it on to the
employer and get a rejection back? Or nothing?

I won't be offended or have my feeling hurt; give me real feedback
about my application. Tell me why I failed. THEN you can start giving
me advice on doing a better one, or applying for better fitting jobs.

2) Tracking the Job. It's inexcusable to keep advertising a job that's
already gone. Or that you've scraped off another site. I want an
agency that only shows jobs that that it's been hired to recruit for
and has good knowledge of. And I want the agency to tell me, as an
applicant, what's going on with that position. How many other people
applied? If I get rejected, how many other people are left in the
running? (Am I in the top 3 or was I filtered out when 50 others were
put forward?) And I want an email the moment you know that the job
went to someone else, so I'm not still wondering about it and can be
on to the next thing.

3) Give me as much real information about the company as possible.
Treat me with respect, not paranoia. If you help me find a job with a
great company, I'm not going to go directly to them and screw you out
of your middle-man fee. Don't hide all the real information as though
I might.

4) Loads of other ways you can add value. When you post the salary
that's offered, show me statistics of other, similar positions you
know about. Is this a good salary for this kind of job? Other sites
track the average salary for different positions, why can't you?

5) Better filtering. I'm not a .NET guy. There's nothing about .NET on
my CV. Sure, as a C, C++, Java, LAMP-stack guy I *could* learn .NET
pretty easily if I needed to. But I didn't mention it. So why are you
sending me dozens of .NET jobs as "good matches"?

6) Why not find out more about me? You got a CV. Perhaps you could
have more online questionnaires. Take a leaf out of the social
networks like Facebook who are always asking me to classify myself in
different ways. Sure, I'm not going to tell you about "Things I do
when the boss isn't looking" but there are some mutually beneficial
questions you can ask, to help me know more about myself and you (and
potential employers) to know more about me.

Recruiting has a bad rep. with a lot of people, because it's just not
done all that well. Like I say, that's a great opportunity for someone
to do it much better.

phil

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Anshu Bathla
<[address removed]> wrote:
      

Hey,

We've got an interesting conversation here. Bill, I agree with you
        

to an
      

extent (may be you have had worse experiences, relatively).. also
        

Owais is
      

correct upto a good extent.

I can say this with my own experience being on both ends, I was a
        

candidate
      

two years ago and was after recruitment agencies to get me placed
        

in a role
      

of my choice..as I had come across many cases where agency guys
        

had really
      

made efforts in getting candidates placed.. but now I see in my
        

company how
      

senior guys scrutinise recruitment agencies first and then make a
        

decision
      

whether to go with a head-hunter or not, which is justifiable to
        

me and
      

hence my opinion.

My opinion is instead of shoo-ing head hunters away, just for that
        

matter,
      

companies must see their portfolio and check out the quality of
        

candidates
      

they hold on to. After all, they are specialists in their role (at
        

least
      

some of them really are) and can do head hunting in a much more
        

effective
      

manner than a normal HR guy in any company.

Rest is upto recruiters - if they have a sharp eye and can do
        

without
      

recruiters, well and good... but still they have to spend money
        

somewhere
      

(O_O) !

Good Luck to all parties involved - candidates, recruiters, head
        

hunters.
      

Cheers,
Anshu

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 09:33, Owais Amiri <[address removed]>
        

wrote:
      

Not every recruitment agency or recruitment consultant are evil and
deserve the rude treatment. Keep in mind they are humans on the
          

recieving
      

end.

There are hundreds and thousands of candidates and companies out
          

there who
      

cannot do without Recruitment agencies.

Not a very polite way of dealing with spam(if it was one).

Kind Regards

Owais Amiri

PS: I am an IT recruitment consultant and have been in the
          

industry for 3
      

months.

2009/3/19 Bill Brown <[address removed]>
          

Recruiters send spam like that to my email 20 times a day. They
autogenerate jobs and send them everywhere by the million just
to collect cvs. Then they try to get leads from you.
Vermin - obviously you don't deal with them yourself or you
would understand.

Next viagra on dreamstake......

2009/3/19 Bill Brown <[address removed]>
            

You are a recruitment agency????
Oh noooooooooooooo - GO AWAY.

2009/3/19 Kay Vasey <[address removed]>
              

Greetings!

We're looking for a company who can code in Python (using the
                

Django
      

framework) to pick up where our current developer is leaving
                

off in April.
      

Does anyone have any recommendations?

Thank you very much in advance.

Kay

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-------------------------------
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Connect :: Invest :: Experience

Mobile: +65 9150 3521
Skype: kayvasey

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