Had to reply to this...  I'm relatively neutral on platforms having

used, developed, run teams, rolled out projects etc. on all sorts of

platform including .Net and open source platforms.

The one problem with proprietary systems is license fees but then again,

for some companies, this is not an issue.  Companies developing on .Net

can get some very good deals and support from MS.  Having said that, I

prefer the open source route: Linux, Apache based appservers, MySQL or,

preferably in my case, Postgresql and PHP, Java, Python, Ruby etc.
".NET is the best choice for an internet application that needs access

to the customers computer - OH!!! - Most of them are Windows machines"

Sorry, this is rubbish.  PHP, Java, C++, Ruby, Python, Perl - just about

any can be used to develop an application on Windows "that needs access

to the customer's computer" AND Unix/Solaris boxes - unlike .Net (unless

you install Mono, Wine or whatever, not a route I'd heartily endorse).

In any case, with Web based systems, access to the customer's computer

is heavily restricted from the browser so the client language is moot

(which, in this case, would be mostly Javascript anyway).
And Eclipse playing catchup?  I've worked on Visual Studio and Eclipse

(and Netbeans, IntelliJ and other IDEs). VS is extremely heavyweight and

specific, of course, to MS.  Eclipse, NetBeans and other IDEs can let

you develop on platforms other than Windows and many professional

systems are developed this way.
"Open Source is free, but so is dog poo!"  Funny how so many successful

Web sites run on Linux/Apache/MySQL/PHP.  PHP is currently the most

popular server-side web programming language, it runs over 33% of the

websites on the Internet.  And they're not small sites: Yahoo, Wikipedia

for example.  And as for hugely successful non-MS open source systems -

Google.  Sweet smelling dog poo indeed.
Regards

Chris Powell

mindyourstreet.com
ralph masilamani wrote:

> Ronny

> Ridiculous rant.

> 1. We're in 2009 - perhaps your non-Microsoft tools can't tell the time.

>

> 2. 'Good Technologists' can always extract the relative strength and

> weaknesses of any technical choice - seems like you can't which leads

> me to believe your skills are lacking

>

> 3. Open source shield? Have you been watching star wars for the

> 32,768th time? You really need a new metaphor!

>

> 4. 'REAL' experts CAN tell you what .NET is good for and what it's

> not. Be vary wary of anyone envagelizing one or the other as they are

> more than likely to be imbalanced.

>

>

> IMHO,

>

> .NET is still the best choice for rapid construction of rich

> applications - Eclipse RCP, SWT, GWT etc are all playing catchup.

> .NET is the best choice for an internet application that needs access

> to the customers computer - OH!!! - Most of them are Windows machines

> .NET is not free - you have to pay for Visual Studio - so that's a

> cost to consider

>

> And by the way, I am not a .NET or MSFT developer.

> I build complex business applications using various technology stacks

> running on diverse global platforms.

> You need to evaluate .NET on it's applicability for your business

> needs - not the rambling rants of some open source, anti-capitalist.

>

> And on a lighter note, remember

> Open Source is free, but so is dog poo!

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> *From:* Ronny Ager-Wick <[address removed]>

> *To:* [address removed]

> *Sent:* Thursday, 19 March, 2009 20:01:02

> *Subject:* Re: [entrepreneur-1056] recruiter spam....

>

> not to mention...ASP.NET?!?!... I mean, what kind of web entrepreneurs

> are using Microsoft technologies??? What happened? Are we back in the

> 80s now???

>

> You may or may not have a good idea but with the wrong technology

> choice you've closed the door for the best hackers (or seriously good

> software developers) in the world, who wouldn't touch you with a barge

> pole. Then you're left with the code monkeys, and the "yeah, let's

> study software development because the salary is high" wannabes...

> Which is fine with me, I don't want them! I work with real hackers only 

>

> oops, did I say that out loud?

> anyway, never mind attacking me with MS evangelism - I have an open

> source shield and I know how to use it 

>

> My advice to all of you: If you're starting up a web business of any

> kind an you're not yourself a hacker, consult some (more than 1) REAL

> experts on web technology for advice on technology platform *BEFORE*

> you start hiring. Understand licensing and what it means for you, your

> product, your company and the value of your company when you intend to

> float it or sell it.

> Starting from scratch after betting on the wrong technology, or

> developers, is very, very expensive!

>

> Ronny.

>

> david j w bailey wrote:

>> Makes me wonder what sort of people are in this group. Surely AJAX

>> code monkeys don't hang out in entrepreneur groups waiting for jobs?

>> If you are asking us to search our networks for you, perhaps you

>> should offer a commission! After all WE are here to create

>> businesses. 

>>

>> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> *From*: Marc Bridgen

>> *Date*: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:30:16 -0400

>> *To*: <[address removed]>

>> *Subject*: RE: [entrepreneur-1056] recruiter spam....

>>

>> Afternoon All,

>>

>>

>>

>> With all this activity I had to get in!

>>

>>

>>

>> We are HIRING for a senior developer to work on www.gigjunkie.net

>> <http://www.gigjun...;:

>>

>>

>>

>> Applicants should have excellent skills in:  ASP.Net 3.5 and MVC, C#,

>> AJAX, XML, Web Services, SQL Server 2005, Visual Studio 2008, a

>> continuous integration environment and MSBuild, TDD, and preferably a

>> queuing technology such as MSMQ

>>

>> ·         have a solid background of highly transactional websites,

>> public websites, enterprise level applications, localisation,

>> profiling and analysing data to produce trends

>>

>> ·         understand the power of Web 2.0 and how it can be leveraged

>>

>> ·         have experience of WWF and WCF, Subversion, an ORM such as

>> NHibernate, cloud computing and an Agile environment

>>

>>

>>

>> Full job spec: http://uk.crunchb...

>>

>>

>>

>> Please share this with any suitable applicants

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> We are NOT using recruitment agencies, so PLEASE do not contact me.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Cheers,

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Marc Bridgen

>>

>>

>>

>> GigJunkie <http://www.gigjun...;

>>

>>

>>

>> 4th Floor

>>

>> 95 Southwark Street

>>

>> London SE1 0HX

>>

>>

>>

>> Mob: 07974 670 946

>>

>> Tel: 020 7593 3035

>>

>> Fax: 020 7593 3029

>>

>>

>>

>> Trading Company is Smart Tickets Ltd.

>>

>> Registered Office: Avalon Accounting, Equity House, 4-6 School Road,

>> Tilehurst, Reading, Berks RG31 5AL.

>>

>> Company Registration Number: 6023008

>>

>>

>>

>> /The information in this email is confidential and may be legally

>> privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this

>> email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended

>> recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken

>> or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be

>> unlawful./

>>

>>

>>

>> *From:* [address removed]

>> [mailto:[address removed]] *On Behalf Of *Owais Amiri

>> *Sent:* 19 March 2009 17:20

>> *To:* [address removed]

>> *Subject:* Re: [entrepreneur-1056] recruiter spam....

>>

>>

>>

>> Phil and Paul, Not surprised to read the list of grievances

>> candidates have against Recruitment agencies. Even companies have

>> been victims of consultants hounding them, being rude to them or

>> being bombarded with aggressive phone calls.

>>

>>

>>

>> But hey, people choose the way they prefer to do business!

>>

>>

>>

>> Possibly I am new to recruitment, but I don't do business the

>> traditional way. We are small company and three altogether.

>>

>>

>>

>> 1) We recieve hundreds of irrelevant CVs for a job posted on a

>> job-board. For eg, I was looking for a Data Protection Manager.

>> Candidate must have an ISEB certificate in Data Protection. We would

>> recieve CVs from people who wouldn't have a clue about data

>> protection or might've come across it the first time(if they take the

>> time to read the JD). So when we recieve hundreds of CV's for one

>> position, it is not always possible to reply to each one of them.

>> However, we do have to go through each one of them because we are

>> paying to place an advert on job-boards.But believe me, when I come

>> across CVs that do match the job description but for some reason

>> cannot put them forward for the role, I do email them and wish them

>> good luck in their job hunt.

>>

>>

>>

>> 2) I love it when candidates take the trouble of giving me a call to

>> follow up once they've emailed me their CV or call to find out why

>> they were un-succesful. Phil, I would love to answer every question I

>> know of if candidates ask me but I don't think its wise to go on and

>> on about the details of rejection when they show no sign of interest

>> themselves. I don't mind telling them how many were put forward and

>> why they were rejected. I guess, the feedback helps them in being

>> smarter and revise their CVs if necessary for future applications.

>>

>>

>>

>> 3) We don't have the budget to keep advertising the jobs when it has

>> already expired. I know there are companies out there who do it the

>> dirty way. We don't and I am sure there are many out there who

>> don;t!! Sales is not all about fooling people!

>>

>>

>>

>> 4) As far as Treating candidates with respect, my colleagues have

>> come across candidates who in turn when placed became our clients.

>> They have used us for their staff requirements because of the respect

>> and service they recieved.

>>

>>

>>

>> 5) Whenever I have located a CV on job-boards which does match the

>> job description and I beleive he is a good fit. First thing I ask

>> when I call them is, "is it a convenient time to speak?". I read out

>> the job description to them briefly, talk to them about the salary.

>> If they show interest, I DO NOT forward their CV to the client there

>> and then, I infact email them the job description and the company's

>> details. Talk to them about the company environment and culture (if

>> its formal/casual, busy/relaxed, tensed/spread out, etc) and then

>> wait for them to email me their updated CV. If there is a need to

>> highlight a few things on the CV so that they have a better chance to

>> qualify for the job, I work on it with them!

>>

>>

>>

>> I have made friends with candidates!

>>

>>

>>

>> I love my job and I know some careless, greedy people out there have

>> spoilt its rep. But hey, some good ones are still alive. I am not

>> here on this forum to sell any of my services, so please do not freak

>> out! I have an enterpreneural flair and would love to develop my

>> skills and knowledge unlike others here.

>>

>>

>>

>> Apologies for writing the longest email of the century!

>>

>>

>>

>> Cheers!

>>

>>

>> Owais Amiri!

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> 2009/3/19 phil jones <[address removed] <mailto:[address removed]>>

>>

>> I'd say that in current circumstances, we don't want to be hostile to

>> anyone who knows about good jobs 

>>

>> But I think there's a great opportunity for a recruiter who raises

>> their game above the others. Way too many of them work on a "throw

>> enough mud against the wall" principle. Too many recruiters I've seem

>> post jobs to get you to register your CV and then you never hear

>> anything about the job you applied for but start getting spammed with

>> a lot of badly matching adverts that read like they've been scraped

>> off someone else's site.

>>

>> Or spammed with other "keep in contact" fluff. I swear that one agency

>> spammed me last week with something about "how to write a great cover

>> letter" that was tied in with a story-telling festival or something.

>> Clever ... but in a trite way. Making me think that these people had

>> no real information to give me.

>>

>> Here's what I'd like from a better recruiter.

>>

>> 1) Tracking of my CV application. When I send a CV to you for a job,

>> I'd like to see what stage it's reached in the process. Did you read

>> my CV yet? Did you reject is as not a good fit? Did you reject it

>> because you didn't think it's good enough? Did you pass it on to the

>> employer and get a rejection back? Or nothing?

>>

>> I won't be offended or have my feeling hurt; give me real feedback

>> about my application. Tell me why I failed. THEN you can start giving

>> me advice on doing a better one, or applying for better fitting jobs.

>>

>> 2) Tracking the Job. It's inexcusable to keep advertising a job that's

>> already gone. Or that you've scraped off another site. I want an

>> agency that only shows jobs that that it's been hired to recruit for

>> and has good knowledge of. And I want the agency to tell me, as an

>> applicant, what's going on with that position. How many other people

>> applied? If I get rejected, how many other people are left in the

>> running? (Am I in the top 3 or was I filtered out when 50 others were

>> put forward?) And I want an email the moment you know that the job

>> went to someone else, so I'm not still wondering about it and can be

>> on to the next thing.

>>

>> 3) Give me as much real information about the company as possible.

>> Treat me with respect, not paranoia. If you help me find a job with a

>> great company, I'm not going to go directly to them and screw you out

>> of your middle-man fee. Don't hide all the real information as though

>> I might.

>>

>> 4) Loads of other ways you can add value. When you post the salary

>> that's offered, show me statistics of other, similar positions you

>> know about. Is this a good salary for this kind of job? Other sites

>> track the average salary for different positions, why can't you?

>>

>> 5) Better filtering. I'm not a .NET guy. There's nothing about .NET on

>> my CV. Sure, as a C, C++, Java, LAMP-stack guy I *could* learn .NET

>> pretty easily if I needed to. But I didn't mention it. So why are you

>> sending me dozens of .NET jobs as "good matches"?

>>

>> 6) Why not find out more about me? You got a CV. Perhaps you could

>> have more online questionnaires. Take a leaf out of the social

>> networks like Facebook who are always asking me to classify myself in

>> different ways. Sure, I'm not going to tell you about "Things I do

>> when the boss isn't looking" but there are some mutually beneficial

>> questions you can ask, to help me know more about myself and you (and

>> potential employers) to know more about me.

>>

>> Recruiting has a bad rep. with a lot of people, because it's just not

>> done all that well. Like I say, that's a great opportunity for someone

>> to do it much better.

>>

>> phil

>>

>>

>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Anshu Bathla

>> <[address removed] <mailto:[address removed]>> wrote:

>> > Hey,

>> >

>> > We've got an interesting conversation here. Bill, I agree with you

>> to an

>> > extent (may be you have had worse experiences, relatively).. also

>> Owais is

>> > correct upto a good extent.

>> >

>> > I can say this with my own experience being on both ends, I was a

>> candidate

>> > two years ago and was after recruitment agencies to get me placed

>> in a role

>> > of my choice..as I had come across many cases where agency guys had

>> really

>> > made efforts in getting candidates placed.. but now I see in my

>> company how

>> > senior guys scrutinise recruitment agencies first and then make a

>> decision

>> > whether to go with a head-hunter or not, which is justifiable to me and

>> > hence my opinion.

>> >

>> > My opinion is instead of shoo-ing head hunters away, just for that

>> matter,

>> > companies must see their portfolio and check out the quality of

>> candidates

>> > they hold on to. After all, they are specialists in their role (at

>> least

>> > some of them really are) and can do head hunting in a much more

>> effective

>> > manner than a normal HR guy in any company.

>> >

>> > Rest is upto recruiters - if they have a sharp eye and can do without

>> > recruiters, well and good... but still they have to spend money

>> somewhere

>> > (O_O) !

>> >

>> > Good Luck to all parties involved - candidates, recruiters, head

>> hunters.

>> >

>> > Cheers,

>> > Anshu

>> >

>> >

>> > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 09:33, Owais Amiri <[address removed]

>> <mailto:[address removed]>> wrote:

>> >>

>> >> Not every recruitment agency or recruitment consultant are evil and

>> >> deserve the rude treatment. Keep in mind they are humans on the

>> recieving

>> >> end.

>> >>

>> >> There are hundreds and thousands of candidates and companies out

>> there who

>> >> cannot do without Recruitment agencies.

>> >>

>> >> Not a very polite way of dealing with spam(if it was one).

>> >>

>> >> Kind Regards

>> >>

>> >> Owais Amiri

>> >>

>> >> PS: I am an IT recruitment consultant and have been in the

>> industry for 3

>> >> months.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> 2009/3/19 Bill Brown <[address removed] <mailto:[address removed]>>

>> >>>

>> >>> Recruiters send spam like that to my email 20 times a day. They

>> >>> autogenerate jobs and send them everywhere by the million just

>> >>> to collect cvs. Then they try to get leads from you.

>> >>> Vermin - obviously you don't deal with them yourself or you

>> >>> would understand.

>> >>>

>> >>> Next viagra on dreamstake......

>> >>>

>> >>> 2009/3/19 Bill Brown <[address removed] <mailto:[address removed]>>

>> >>>>

>> >>>> You are a recruitment agency????

>> >>>> Oh noooooooooooooo - GO AWAY.

>> >>>>

>> >>>> 2009/3/19 Kay Vasey <[address removed] <mailto:[address removed]>>

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> Greetings!

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> We're looking for a company who can code in Python (using the

>> Django

>> >>>>> framework) to pick up where our current developer is leaving

>> off in April.

>> >>>>> Does anyone have any recommendations?

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> Thank you very much in advance.

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> Kay

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> --

>> >>>>> Kay Vasey :: Director

>> >>>>> -------------------------------

>> >>>>> Mesh - The Cultural Marketplace

>> >>>>> Connect :: Invest :: Experience

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> Mobile: +65 9150 3521

>> >>>>> Skype: kayvasey

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> [address removed] <mailto:[address removed]>

>> >>>>> http://www.meshmi... <http://www.meshmi...;

>> >>>>> http://www.meshmi...

>> <http://www.meshmi...;

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> Company No. 5898203

>> >>>>> VAT Reg. No. 891 1086 20

>> >>>>> Registered address: 57 Mildmay Road, London N1 4PU

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>>

>> >>>>> --

>> >>>>> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to

>> everyone

>> >>>>> on this mailing list ([address removed]

>> <mailto:[address removed]>)

>> >>>>> This message was sent by Kay Vasey ([address removed]

>> <mailto:[address removed]>) from London

>> >>>>> OpenCoffee Meetup.

>> >>>>> To learn more about Kay Vasey, visit his/her member profile

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>> >>>>> Meetup Support: [address removed] <mailto:[address removed]>

>> >>>>> 632 Broadway, New York, NY 10012 USA

>> >>>>

>> >>>>

>> >>>>

>> >>>>

>> >>>> --

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>> >>>

>> >>>

>> >>>

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>> >>> this mailing list ([address removed]

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>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> --

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